Local Python orgs around the world, and the PSF

[fkiraly (Franz Király)]

@MegaIng, indeed, because one of the signs of healthy discussion culture is picking one sentence, getting worked up about semantics or tone, and then ignoring the content.

Or are Czech, Germany and Japan not international in your view?

All but perhaps one person in this thread who purport to speak for interests of communities abroad are in fact subject to serious conflicts of interests with PSF directly or towards the USA.

“Czech” - Petr Viktorin is employed by RedHat which is owned by IBM, a US based multinational. He is also not directly a local organizer as he admits here Local Python orgs around the world, and the PSF - #5 by encukou, but has more of a dispatcher role between the “centralized” entities and the actual local organizers.

“German” - Marc-André Lemburg is a former PSF director. He is in the inner circle of PSF.

Japan/Malaysia - to the state of my current knowledge, @iqbalabd is a “real” local organizer.

Interestingly, he echoes many of the points I also list, although in a tone that I would consider extremely humble and very cautious.

E.g., “promote our regional communities to interested sponsors in the US, point them to PAO” could also be phrased: “PSF is a gatekeeper of sponsors”. The sentence “More opportunities to attend pycon US” could also be phrased: “we cannot attend due to visa blockage, insufficient timelines, and/or lack of support by PSF”. Or, “approving more percentage of grants” could be phrased: “we get next to nothing while PSF spends millions yearly on pycon US”.

This I think is also indirect evidence for the dynamics behind this forum and PSF more generally, which I am alluding to by “indirect pressures, people need to grovel” - even a tiny bit of edge may trigger the mob in this forum to single out and attack a person, or, maybe, surprisingly, next year funds for the communities you represent no longer get approved or there is a grant freeze.

[nedbat (Ned Batchelder)]

Do you have people supporting your cause? Ask them to come here and add their voices.

There is no reason people outside the US, or people disenchanted with the PSF, would have a harder time using this site than anyone else. They can come here and help advocate for your cause.

I understand the point about international travel visas, but the internet is available everywhere. Why aren’t there people joining this forum to help you?

[tim.one (Tim Peters)]

@fkiraly

“German” - Marc-André Lemburg is a former PSF director. He is in the inner circle of PSF.

Not really. Marc-Andre and I were both founding members of the PSF, worked hard to create it, and were on its first Boards. We used to be “inner circle” for sure, at the very center in fact, but not anymore. I was even banned for 3 months by the PSF last year.. Marc-Andre’s only remaining PSF roles are as a very longstanding member of the Trademarks Committee, and still a Fellow of the foundation (mostly honorary, but does give him a vote, same as any other voting member)..

He’s absolutely been a key player in developing infrastructure and support for European Python groups that cooperate with, but are not subservient to, the PSF. He’s very much worth listening to.

[tim.one (Tim Peters)]

@nedbat

Why aren’t there people joining this forum to help you?

There’s a history of people advancing minority views getting “pecked half to death” on this forum. I know a bunch who won’t post here at all anymore, on any topic (Steve Holden announced as much publicly, and has kept to his word, apart from a brief appearance in the topic memorializing Michael Foord). I’ve been trying to stick to purely technical topics, because I’m weary too of needless drama.

It’s pretty clear to me that Franz’s account would have been suspended already if he weren’t currently running for the Board (the optics of silencing a candidate would be poor). For saying which I wouldn’t be surprised to get piled on either.

So I’ll drop it. Not saying their are “Franz supporters” who fear to speak up here, am saying it would be wholly understandable to me if there are. They wouldn’t speak up here, period, not even to answer your question about why they won’t.

[nedbat (Ned Batchelder)]

@tim.one

Not saying their are “Franz supporters” who fear to speak up here, am saying it would be wholly understandable to me if there are. They wouldn’t speak up here, period, not even to answer your question about why they won’t.

Sure, that’s possible. I’d be interested to read their opinions anywhere. Surely the PSF and the “Python mob” are not so domineering and spiteful that Franz’ supporters are afraid to appear anywhere? Are we that bad?

[tim.one (Tim Peters)]

@nedbat

Sure, that’s possible. I’d be interested to read their opinions anywhere. Surely the PSF and the “Python mob” are not so domineering and spiteful that Franz’ supporters are afraid to appear anywhere? Are we that bad?

Oh, I see all sorts of stuff that never shows up here. But these are on private mailing lists, where everyone tries to live by the Golden Rule and the principle of charity, and baiting, sniping, trolling, and passive-aggressive games are conspicuous by absence. I think of it as being “adult”, but at my age that’s decades beyond what the word means to most people .

If they want to endure the drama of making their views public (it would be just as bad if, e.g., they posted publicly on “social media”, although they’d be less likely to get those accounts suspended), they will. Until then, such lists don’t solicit new members, or advertise their existence. They’re not looking for popularity, and have no agenda to “sell”.On one such list, there has been lively discussion about Kiraly’s stated goals. Are they “Kiraly supporters”? Don’t know. The focus there is on ideas, not personalities.

[nedbat (Ned Batchelder)]

@tim.one

They’re not looking for popularity, and have no agenda to “sell”.On one such list, there has been lively discussion about Kiraly’s stated goals. Are they “Kiraly supporters”? Don’t know. The focus there is on ideas, not personalities.

This forum might be difficult, and there might be unnecessary drama. But I don’t see it as a place that prioritizes personalities over ideas. There are plenty of ideas being discussed here.

This very thread was about the idea of the PSF and its relationship to local organizations. Maybe we should stick to that instead of devolving this thread into grievances.

I’m trying to give Franz every opportunity to discuss his idea without drama, but he seems incapable of it, and there are no supporting voices here or links provided to other places where they have spoken. Perhaps there is a secret society of supporters someplace, unwilling for whatever reason to speak publicly. That doesn’t bode well for his candidacy or for his federation.

[tim.one (Tim Peters)]

@nedbat

This very thread was about the idea of the PSF and its relationship to local organizations. Maybe we should stick to that instead of devolving this thread into grievances.

Yes, this is descending into meta-drama, which I stick to mailing lists now to avoid. On those, there is never a meta-discussion about whether the topic at hand “should be” discussed.

And you’re right! By this forum’s lights, my digression was “off topic”, although in response to your “off topic digression” about why Franz’s supporters (if any) are invisible. Which in turn was in response to Franz’s “off topic digression” about this forum’s social dynamics.

I’ll do my part to break the cycle by just shutting up now .

[lucascolley]

@nedbat

This very thread was about the idea of the PSF and its relationship to local organizations. Maybe we should stick to that instead of devolving this thread into grievances.

Yes please

I would be interested in hearing more thoughts on:

@malemburg

A split into an organization which runs PyCon US and one which maintains the IP rights could help remove this risk, since the first part requires a lot less effort and financial investment, compared to the second part.

However, the split has other effects as well: Control over how PyCon US is run would be left to the organization B running PyCon US and the “IP rights PSF” organization A would likely not have much influence anymore. Even if B were to be set up as an org 100% owned by A, A would only have shareholder rights.

So it’s a path that would need careful thinking to pursue.

in light of:

@fkiraly

For instance, look at a random charity like Médecins sans Frontières. They are incorporated in all major jurisdictions. There is an umbrella in Switzerland, which holds international trademarks; legal assets and further trademarks are held by the local incorporations.

[malemburg (Marc-André Lemburg)]

The idea of a federation of Python organizations around the world is not new and in fact already exists to some extent as mentioned earlier in this topic. There are several independent Python supporting organizations in various regions of the world and the number keeps growing.

The twist to Adam’s idea of splitting the PSF you quoted was more about risk management than anything else.

Leaving aside all the positive effects of having the PSF run the PyCon US conference, it does pose a significant risk to the original role of having the PSF protect and secure the IP in Python. We basically replaced the “what if Guido gets hit by a bus” (one of the motivating factors in founding the PSF) with “what if the PSF goes bankrupt as a result of PyCon US budgets failing”.

Separating out the IP rights into a new org could help reduce such risks, while the PSF as a US non-profit would be able to continue running everything else as usual, including PyCon US.

[tim.one (Tim Peters)]

@malemburg

Leaving aside all the positive effects of having the PSF run the PyCon US conference, it does pose a significant risk to the original role of having the PSF protect and secure the IP in Python. We basically replaced the “what if Guido gets hit by a bus” (one of the motivating factors in founding the PSF) with “what if the PSF goes bankrupt as a result of PyCon US budgets failing”.

My memory is a little different. We absolutely wanted a solid corporation to hold the IP rights, but … there was also significant desire to run Python events less costly to attend than the ones CNRI ran, which weren’t luxurious, but reflected much more the “professional budgets” of government-funded groups (CNRI’s chief clients) than impecunious hobbyists, fans, and students.

And, yup! That proved easier wished for than achieved, and it seemed we were always just one PyCon away from plausible bankruptcy.

I was actually happy to see that the PSF was solid enough to absorb small losses from some recent PyCons (although that’s “small” in comparison to what running PyCon cost, not in comparison to, e.g., the grants budget).

But it would be good to secure the IP rights independent of PyCon finances, via a legally distinct corporation. Risk management is vital for the long term.