I don’t want to let this drag out by having 5 competing PEPs because I have already been messaged by someone wanting to proposal yet another alternative. The fact that I’m willing to even consider another PEP is a bonus.
I only have so much time and MS is already being nice enough to let me do this on some work time and spend the money to do user studies (because they are not free), and that’s not counting everyone’s salary on my team when they are doing this instead of working on other things. So anything taking more time – such as having to have multiple user studies to cover every proposal out there, more for me to read and consider, etc. – does not come for free for me.
I think I have done it before. Usually, though, delegates just refuse to consider another PEP and force everyone to agree.
I don’t think you mean anything negative about this, but I feel like I’m being questioned/pressured unfairly to have to justify how I’m trying to be accommodating to this alternative proposal more than some people would if they were in my position. If you want me to consider an alternative to Paul’s PEPs as a PEP delegate simultaneously, these are my stipulations. If Paul would rather ask someone else to be PEP delegate who has more time to consider more PEPs, then that’s fine and I won’t be offended if he chooses someone else (but I don’t expect he will since I’m in a unique position to help with this topic not everyone has the time or inclination to be put in the time-consuming, stressful position of being a PEP delegate).
Not really. @ofek has been around long enough to know what goes into a PEP and Paul already wrote a PEP that can be referenced from Ofek’s PEP, which means the PEP can very much focus on the concrete proposal instead of the reason for wanting any of this. Now if Ofek tells me he is about to go on vacation or something then he and I can talk about that (he knows how to reach me and knows he chat with me if he ends up needing more time).
No worries!
There’s an expectation that you choose one or the other, which makes it very hard to consider the PEPs on their individual merits, and in particular, makes “reject both” a very unpleasant option - given that you know how much effort and passion people have put into a discussion that ends up in this situation. I really don’t want to put Brett, or the community, in that position if I can avoid it.
I appreciate that and I don’t want to be in that position either if it can be avoided. But I will say upfront I will reject all PEPs if a specific one doesn’t make sense. No one writing a PEP should have any illusion that just because they put the work in their PEP it means it will get accepted (go check out peps.python.org and see how many of my own PEPs have been rejected to know that it very much happens).
Maybe I am wrong, but I feel like people are writing
pyproject.toml
when they actually mean only its[project]
section, and it is a bit frustrating to me, because then it feels to me like people are talking past each other: good arguments are made but ignored and bad arguments are made but not refuted. I know I have written this a couple of times already in this past few days, but I feel like it important to be repeated.
That’s going to be up to Ofek to clarify in his PEP.
I’m quite confused by the dismissal of the fact that tools like Hatch, Poetry and Visual Studio Code will most certainly be asked to support this.
If you look at it from the perspective of a child in a programming class at school I can see where people are coming from. A teacher might get their students to first install Python. But then what comes next? Is Hatch going to make the most sense, or some simpler tool (for instance, if this is simple enough to implement you could make it work with a .pyz
and have a custom experience for that class alone)? At that point do you view it as “graduating up” to Hatch, or do you simply start with Hatch?
OK, I’ve finally completed the update to the PEP.
Thanks so much!
@ofek , do you think you can have a draft up by Monday, August 14th?