# Reconsider the "Users" category? **URL:** \ **Category:** Discourse Feedback\ **Created:** [February 20, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365 "2020-02-20T21:44:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![mlgtechuser](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/mlgtechuser/32/7310_2.png) [@mlgtechuser](https://discuss.python.org/u/mlgtechuser)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2022, 11:04am UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/82 "2022-06-19T11:04:55Z")
> [@cameron](#): > > [Regarding NumPy]: This is exactly the kind of example which makes me argue against making a > non-stdlib area. To new people the distinction is vague at best, and > they’re often in environments preloaded with sciPy stuff. 100% agreed. This is a delicate balance to strike. It may not be practical or even feasible. Most beginner users I’ve interacted with here are aware that they’re using Pandas or Numpy or pyPlot or matPlotlib, etc., so would presumably understand the benefit and use of a focused category. > [@cameron](#): > > I do not think trying to have separate “Help” vs “Users” categories will be helpful, or work well. > > Catch niche questions and either provide specific help or direct the OP > to a better category or forum or list. Avoid sending them away feeling unwelcome. Everyone here has covered the first sentence pretty thoroughly. The second advocates for a category for niche questions. I was only referring to the niche questions. ---
**Author:** ![mlgtechuser](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/mlgtechuser/32/7310_2.png) [@mlgtechuser](https://discuss.python.org/u/mlgtechuser)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2022, 11:05am UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/83 "2022-06-19T11:05:28Z")
A category that I didn’t notice in the discussion above is “Discourse Help”. While it’s tempting to adopt the defeatist approach and say _“No one bothers to read pinned posts!!”_, etc., it is true that many people are interested in presenting themselves in the best light possible. Also, the more people are aware of and use best practices, the more it will become cultural here. Referring someone to `discourse.org` is guaranteed to stifle their follow-through (and the traffic there is mostly about hosting and administering Discourse so is not relevant to the average user here). * * * ALSO- From the **User** category description: > General help/discussion forum for the Python programming language. Recommend: Separate the word ‘help’ so that it is more easily seen. (“General help / discussion forum…”) ---
**Author:** ![mlgtechuser](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/mlgtechuser/32/7310_2.png) [@mlgtechuser](https://discuss.python.org/u/mlgtechuser)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2022, 11:31am UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/84 "2022-06-19T11:31:26Z")
The usual way to close out debate/discussion in a group (a parliamentary body) is to call for a vote so the group can decide as a group. I’m not going to presuppose sufficient standing here to initiate a vote mostly because someone needs to (1) decide who the authorized voters are and (2) set up a limited-access venue for the vote to be carried out. Definitely above my current pay grade. 🤠 However, I _ **can** _ present the likely names to vote on for the User category: - What should we call the category for general Python help? - Python Code Programming Help - Python Program Code Help - Python Coding Help - Python Code Help - Python Help It seems that there’s consensus on creating a “General Discussion” category, though there might be a need to vote on the name as well. Here are the ballot entires that will accomplish this: - Should we create a category for general discussion of Python-related topics? - YES - NO - What should the name of this new category be? - General Discussion - General Topics - _Not enough names; open a specific topic on this to collect a few more_ ---
**Author:** ![steven.daprano](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/steven.daprano/32/1083_2.png) [@steven.daprano](https://discuss.python.org/u/steven.daprano)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/85 "2022-06-19T14:26:15Z")
Most beginners have no clue which libraries are third party and which are not. And it doesn’t really matter: if they ask for help, we can either help them (because we know the answer) or we can’t, and have to refer them elsewhere. We don’t refer people elsewhere out of spite or just to muck them about. We do it because we don’t know the answer to their question. Asking the question in a separate “Third Party” topic will just mean that they have a smaller community seeing their posts. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/quercus/32/31483_2.png) [@Quercus](https://discuss.python.org/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 8:39pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/86 "2022-06-30T20:39:30Z")
There appears to be a consensus among us regarding the following action items: - Change the name of the **Users** category to **Python Help**. - Create a **General Discussion** category. Place this right after the **Python Help** category. - Change the name of the **Python Software Foundation** category to **PSF**. If this is so, perhaps we should identify a date for those changes to be made. During the interim, anyone who has serious objections to their implementation can express them. If there is sentiment, instead, for a more formal mechanism for assessing the degree of support for these changes, those in charge could consider such an alternative. Would it be agreeable to the [@admins](https://discuss.python.org/groups/admins) to schedule July 7th for those changes to be made, unless some good reasons are presented for us not to proceed with them at that time, or for a more formal technique to be invoked for gauging community support for them? ---
**Author:** ![brettcannon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/brettcannon/32/34895_2.png) [@brettcannon](https://discuss.python.org/u/brettcannon)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 10:28pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/87 "2022-06-30T22:28:42Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Would it be agreeable to the [@admins](https://discuss.python.org/groups/admins) to schedule July 7th for those changes to be made, unless some good reasons are presented for us not to proceed with them at that time, or for a more formal technique to be invoked for gauging community support for them? I’ve sent a message to [@staff](https://discuss.python.org/groups/staff) on this topic, but I’m waiting to hear back, so no timeline. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/quercus/32/31483_2.png) [@Quercus](https://discuss.python.org/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2022, 11:03am UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/88 "2022-07-01T11:03:33Z")
Thanks, Brett! With those consensus items implemented, energy can then be directed toward some of the other great ideas that have been presented within this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![pf\_moore](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/pf_moore/32/35_2.png) [@pf\_moore](https://discuss.python.org/u/pf_moore)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 12:40pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/89 "2022-07-07T12:40:18Z")
One thing that surprised me (and I’m mentioning it here because I’m not sure where to report it 🙁) is that there isn’t an obvious “Where to go for help” link or page on the [www.python.org](http://www.python.org) front page. There’s the “Community” section, but that’s more about how we _manage_ community issues than being _for_ the community. The best link seems to be “About → Help” but that’s not very obvious (I didn’t spot it until I went back and re-checked just now). I think having a very obvious “Where to go if you have a question” link on the [www.python.org](http://www.python.org) homepage would be a significant improvement. If nothing else, it’s something we can provide as a link to people who end up in the wrong place (I thought of this because I was trying to suggest a better place for someone who just raised a pip issue, probably because they didn’t know what else to do…) ---
**Author:** ![brettcannon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/brettcannon/32/34895_2.png) [@brettcannon](https://discuss.python.org/u/brettcannon)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 7:20pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/90 "2022-07-07T19:20:45Z")
> [@pf\_moore](#): > > I’m mentioning it here because I’m not sure where to report it Website issues can be reported at [GitHub - python/pythondotorg: Source code for python.org](https://github.com/python/pythondotorg) . ---
**Author:** ![pf\_moore](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/pf_moore/32/35_2.png) [@pf\_moore](https://discuss.python.org/u/pf_moore)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 7:47pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/91 "2022-07-07T19:47:48Z")
> > > \*\*Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe.\*\* > Users having… trouble with a Python problem don't really have a good idea of where to go for help. As a result, they often ask in the wrong place - for example, users having problems with importing modules raise issues on the pip tracker. > > \*\*Describe the solution you'd like\*\* > It would be good to have a very clear link on the python.org homepage saying "Where to get help" and pointing to user forums like the Users category on Discourse and comp.lang.python. > > \*\*Describe alternatives you've considered\*\* > At the moment, this information is available via About-\>Help, but that's not at all obvious to a newcomer. The "Community" section seems more about how we manage the community than how to be part of the community. > > \*\*Additional context\*\* > See \[this post on Discourse\](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/89?u=pf\_moore) for context ---
**Author:** ![CAM-Gerlach](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/cam-gerlach/32/3688_2.png) [@CAM-Gerlach](https://discuss.python.org/u/CAM-Gerlach)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 8:41pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/92 "2022-07-22T20:41:35Z")
Hey, any updates on the progress of this? ---
**Author:** ![brettcannon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/brettcannon/32/34895_2.png) [@brettcannon](https://discuss.python.org/u/brettcannon)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 9:33pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/93 "2022-07-22T21:33:20Z")
I was just about to rename the categories when I saw there was a message here and paused what I was doing to come see what someone said. 😁 ---
**Author:** ![brettcannon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/brettcannon/32/34895_2.png) [@brettcannon](https://discuss.python.org/u/brettcannon)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 9:36pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/94 "2022-07-22T21:36:35Z")
1. “Python Software Foundation” → “PSF” 2. “Users” → “Python Help” I left the category slugs alone. ---
**Author:** ![mlgtechuser](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/mlgtechuser/32/7310_2.png) [@mlgtechuser](https://discuss.python.org/u/mlgtechuser)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 1:40am UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/95 "2022-07-27T01:40:36Z")
On a PEP/Ideas [**topic that seems to be looking for a category home**](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-suggestions-against-tabs/17348/16), I asked about adding the ‘General Discussion’ category discussed here and @brettcannon replied: > I personally wasn’t planning on it as it feels like it would overlap too much with Ideas and be too hard to explain the differences. It looked like @Quercus had summarized the settled questions in a fairly recent post: > [@Quercus](#): > > There appears to be a consensus among us regarding the following action items: > > - Change the name of the **Users** category to **Python Help**. > - Create a **General Discussion** category. Place this right after the **Python Help** category. > - Change the name of the **Python Software Foundation** category to **PSF**. Since the **Ideas** category is for language changes (“change something in Python”), the difference between that and **General Discussion** should be pretty clear. I think the safe bet is that **Ideas** will get diluted/polluted with general discussion topics if no separate category is provided. Was this point not as much of a consensus as it appeared to be? Is this a case of the ‘Chairman’ voting rather than just being the Chairman? (The Chair generally refrains from voting due to the extra influence they hold, and votes only when they would break a tie.) From the discussion here, it looks like a **General Discussions** category is needed and valuable. Is this still the case? ---
**Author:** ![davidism](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/davidism/32/3295_2.png) [@davidism](https://discuss.python.org/u/davidism)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 5:30am UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/96 "2022-07-27T05:30:22Z")
Or, we don’t add another category, and don’t have general discussions. Either discuss a feature idea, ask a question in help (it’s not just for beginners), or ask something specific to another category. We don’t have to support every conceivable topic in this forum. I agree with Brett, there’s already overlap. There’s already plenty to moderate without allowing even broader topics. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/quercus/32/31483_2.png) [@Quercus](https://discuss.python.org/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 11:14am UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/97 "2022-07-27T11:14:02Z")
One of the important concerns has been that inexperienced users were initiating discussions within categories where they did not belong. Most of these discussions were requests for help with code. The newly-named **Python Help** category would sieve out most of this material. However, there would be the need for a category for topics of general interest that were not requests for help. An example of such a discussion is [Python download stats for May 2020](https://discuss.python.org/t/python-download-stats-for-may-2020/4454). A **General Discussion** category, listed right after the **Python Help** category, would serve as a home for these discussions. It would also serve as a second line of defense against the incursion of the remaining Python development and distribution related categories with misplaced posts. ---
**Author:** ![steven.daprano](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/steven.daprano/32/1083_2.png) [@steven.daprano](https://discuss.python.org/u/steven.daprano)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 11:47am UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/98 "2022-07-27T11:47:12Z")
We could look at how [Python-Forum](https://python-forum.io/) arranges things. They have separate forums for coding help and general discussion. Under coding help, they have forums for: - data science - game development - web scraping and development among others, plus a General Coding forum for things which don’t fit into any of those categories. Under general discussion, they have: - news and discussion - tutorials - code reviews etc. Overkill for our needs? Perhaps. But there doesn’t seem to be anywhere to just have a Python-related discussion if it doesn’t involve asking for help or proposing a new language feature. ---
**Author:** ![petersuter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@petersuter](https://discuss.python.org/u/petersuter)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 3:55pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/99 "2022-07-27T15:55:57Z")
> [@steven.daprano](#): > > [Python-Forum](https://python-forum.io/) There’s also [https://discuss.scientific-python.org/](https://discuss.scientific-python.org/) and more ([https://discourse.jupyter.org/](https://discourse.jupyter.org/), [https://discuss.tensorflow.org/](https://discuss.tensorflow.org/), [https://discuss.pytorch.org/](https://discuss.pytorch.org/), …) Maybe linking to such other forums somewhere would also help? [Elsewhere](https://forum.image.sc/) they have a “Related Forums” link in the menu: ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/uploads/python1/original/2X/8/8ecfc23322cf06d73bb36323556594efc9ba0770.png) For example via [Custom Header Links (icons) - theme-component - Discourse Meta](https://meta.discourse.org/t/custom-header-links-icons/86307) ---
**Author:** ![brettcannon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/brettcannon/32/34895_2.png) [@brettcannon](https://discuss.python.org/u/brettcannon)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 7:14pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/100 "2022-07-27T19:14:27Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > An example of such a discussion is [Python download stats for May 2020](https://discuss.python.org/t/python-download-stats-for-may-2020/4454). A **General Discussion** category, listed right after the **Python Help** category, would serve as a home for these discussions It’s also okay to say a topic is misplaced for this Discourse instance and should be taken somewhere else. As @davidism said, we don’t need to be the be-all, end-all place for all Python-related discussions on the internet. Otherwise someone will need to set up a separate Discourse instance for that level of general communication as I don’t think we have the capacity to go that wide with this. The other direction is to shut down the Help section and take this back to being focused on the development _of_ Python and not _with_ Python. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/discuss.python.org/quercus/32/31483_2.png) [@Quercus](https://discuss.python.org/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365/101 "2022-07-27T19:22:17Z")
> [@brettcannon](#): > > The other direction is to shut down the Help section and take this back to being focused on the development _of_ Python and not _with_ Python. That would be a sad outcome. Hosting a **Python Help** category provides people who are learning Python valued opportunities to interact directly with the developers of Python as well as with other experienced programmers. For sure, those learners are very appreciative of that. [Previous page](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365.md?page=4) [Next page](https://discuss.python.org/t/reconsider-the-users-category/3365.md?page=6)