Unbuffered stdin, bug in docs or implementation?

I think there’s a way that buffering affects input – if process A writes to a pipe and two processes B and C are reading from it, first B, then C, if B buffers more data than it actually consumes, some data intended for C will be left unprocessed in B’s buffer. E.g. here we might expect the second Python process to print the second line of a file:

cat file | (python -c 'import sys; sys.stdin.readline()'; python -c 'import sys; print(sys.stdin.readline())')

If the first Python process buffers more than one line, the second process will not see that line.

setbuf/setvbuf works for C FILE*. But sys.stdin, sys.stdout, sys.stderr in Python don’t use C FILE*.
So it doesn’t affect to Python stdin. Updating the doc would confuse Python users.

You’re right. But then I’m totally confused.

In initconfig.c there are several calls to setvbuf()/setbuf():

    if (!config->buffered_stdio) {
        setvbuf(stdin,  (char *)NULL, _IONBF, BUFSIZ);
        setvbuf(stdout, (char *)NULL, _IONBF, BUFSIZ);
        setvbuf(stderr, (char *)NULL, _IONBF, BUFSIZ);
#else /* !HAVE_SETVBUF */
        setbuf(stdin,  (char *)NULL);
        setbuf(stdout, (char *)NULL);
        setbuf(stderr, (char *)NULL);
#endif /* !HAVE_SETVBUF */

I’m assuming that’s the code Facundo saw. Do those calls have any effect at all? Are they just there for C extensions using <stdio.h>?

It does appear that Python’s sys.std{in,out,err} are initialized in pylifecycle.c according to the docs.

That is exactly what I saw, after following the breadcrumbs of the -u command line flag…

Python core uses C stdio in several cases. For example, reading Python script from stdin (e.g. cat script.py | python -u), printing exceptions that can not be handled, etc.

So I am not sure that we can just remove them without breaking anything.

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This is one of the problems with stdin buffering. The other is related to consuming a specified number of input bytes on a non-seekable input.

This (older) page explains things in more detail: stdio buffering

Note: Some of the codecs use such input buffers as well to store read data which could not yet be processed (e.g. say you read 2 bytes of a 3 byte UTF-8 encoded code point).


It is not really clear to me, whether the unbuffered setting in initconfig.c has an effect on the underlying file descriptors. The code in pylifecycle.c works directly on file descriptors and always opens stdin in buffered mode:

    /* stdin is always opened in buffered mode, first because it shouldn't
       make a difference in common use cases, second because TextIOWrapper
       depends on the presence of a read1() method which only exists on
       buffered streams.
    if (!buffered_stdio && write_mode)
        buffering = 0;
        buffering = -1;
    if (write_mode)
        mode = "wb";
        mode = "rb";
    buf = _PyObject_CallMethod(io, &_Py_ID(open), "isiOOOO",
                               fd, mode, buffering,
                               Py_None, Py_None, /* encoding, errors */
                               Py_None, Py_False); /* newline, closefd */
    if (buf == NULL)
        goto error;

Here’s what the man page on stdin has to say: “…FILEs are a buffering wrapper around UNIX file descriptors… mixing use of FILEs and raw file descriptors can produce unexpected results and should generally be avoided. (For the masochistic among you: POSIX.1, section 8.2.3, describes in detail how this interaction is supposed to work.) A general rule is that file descriptors are handled in the kernel, while stdio is just a library.”

Unfortunately, the POSIX section doesn’t go into details on buffering. Since the POSIX functions for file descriptors don’t support buffering, my guess is that the buffering code in initconfig.c thus only affects C lib stdio usage and not the file descriptor based code used by the io module for sys.stdin.

So it seems that when using python3 -u you get an unbuffered C lib stdio stdin stream, but a buffered Python sys.stdin.

How could it? Buffering is not a property of file descriptors – it is implemented independently by C <stdio.h>'s FILE object, and by Python’s buffered IO classes (inheriting from io.BufferedIOBase).

Given what I’ve learned in this thread, I definitely think a doc update would be good – unless we want to keep all these details implementation secrets, which doesn’t seem a good idea, as they clearly affect users (in some cases).


This does feel somewhat unfortunate. But I guess the saving grace is that the main use for the C-level stdin is to read a script, which Python always reads until EOF. So perhaps it doesn’t matter? Maybe Facundo was just misled by the code (as was I when I tried to reproduce his investigations).


Yep, I learned that while researching the rest of the post :slight_smile:


Yeah, that this is only coming up now, when this code has been in place for likely decade(s)… suggests that. It’d impact an extension module that used C’s FILE* stdin… but really what code would ever do that? And anything that tries without a complete read would then see problems with data “disappearing” from the perspective of Python’s stdin as some was slurped into the C buffer so they’d eventually learn not to.

So +1 to just documenting this state of affairs and no need to change the behavior without a compelling use which has so far never surfaced.


Well, stdin is not only used for piping in data, but also in interactive sessions in a text console, where you may want to have unbuffered reads (e.g. to control a cursor or player in a game via keyboard input). I guess those will have to use other methods of getting more direct access to keyboard input with Python 3, as it doesn’t seem possible to make sys.stdin unbuffered.

Anyway, +1 on updating the documentation and just mentioning the status quo.

Having a really unbuffered reader in the io module would be “nice”, but the use cases for that are really corner cases and so far, nobody strongly required it so nobody implemented it.

I agree that it’s better to just document the exact behavior, explain the difference between C stdio streams (FILE *stdin) and Python stream objects (sys.stdin).

On Windows, when Python is run in a console, sys.stdin (sys.stdin.buffer.raw) is usually a WindowsConsoleIO which is a different beast.

The relationship between sys.stdin, sys.stdin.buffer and sys.stdin.buffer.raw is not obvious neither.

The reality is complicated :wink:

Right, handling pipes (another_program | python and python < input_file) is complicated, and I think that the main motivation to always buffer stdin is mostly performance. Reading stdin with read(1) syscall (one byte per one bye) would just be too inefficient. For a pipe, it’s not possible to “ungetch” a character or a sub-string (“seek backward”). Usually, -u command line option is used to get “partial write” (without newline) into stdout and stderr (see progress/messages “immediately” when stdout/stderr are redirected), rather than getting unbuffered stdin.

What if make -u only turning the output unbuffered, and -uu turning also the input (both C and Python) unbuffered?

As I understand the comments in the implementation (pylifecycle.c), the io stack does not support unbuffered streams with TextIOWrapper, so we don’t have the option to make sys.stdin unbuffered.

BTW: Is is still possible to reopen sys.stdin in Python 3 using different io wrappers, e.g. a binary one ?

The following comment from create_stdio() in “Python/pylifecycle.c” is mistaken about read1():

    /* stdin is always opened in buffered mode, first because it shouldn't
       make a difference in common use cases, second because TextIOWrapper
       depends on the presence of a read1() method which only exists on
       buffered streams.

TextIOWrapper prefers to read a chunk of bytes via read1() if the wrapped file object has it, but it will otherwise call read(). A raw file doesn’t have read1(). It would be silly if it did.

I think I have encounted that issue using Python as a Native Messaging host.

The Native Messaging protocol specifies capablility to pass 1MB to the host from client. The hosts exits when 873816 bytes are read from sys.stding.buffer How to read exactly N bytes from stdin in Native Messaging host?.

No. your problem is not relating to stdin buffer at all.
I wrote a reply at another thread.

Please stop posting same issue in multiple thread. I found your post in at least three threads.

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In case anyone is thinking about investigating this:

don’t bother, the problem was not with reading from stdin at all, the problem was elsewhere. See thread here.

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