Separate organization using "PSF" acronym during election

Mod note: split from Disclaimer: Unauthorized Use of My Name on LinkedIn and GitHub by a nominee in the 2025 Board Elections, title attempts to summarize initial question/discussion. Attempted to move off topic posts to this new topic, but had to make a call somewhere. Please refer to previous topic for context, but do not continue to post about this there.


First of all - thank you Abigail for rising this topic.
Can anyone point me where I can find more info about this “federation” initiative?

Can anyone share some information about who is (beside the author) in the group of people standing behind “our vision” mentioned in that linkedin post?

Does it look only to me as an attempt to use some part of credibility attached to widely recognized PSF abbreviation?

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The links in the top of this thread are both authored by the federation advocate. We have no better sources than those. The author has also created a few topics in this forum which should help you understand his position.

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I still see it. I don’t know what it originally said, but I assume this part was added in response to this topic here:

I don’t think there’s a real case to made that it violates law, anyone’s TOS, or ethics, for anyone to publicly endorse a candidate in a publicly known election. But as a “Golden Rule guy”, I do think it wrong to leave an impression that the endorsed candidates also endorse you, and strongly so if the nominated person reached out to the nominator first to object (but I have no way to know whether that’s the case here).

If it ever failed to (which I assume is the case), the LinkedIn post is now explicit about that its endorsements are “one-way”. The endorsement may nevertheless be unwanted.

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@nedbat thx. That’s exactly about what I was asking.

At the risk of going off topic, I had occasion to correspond with Kiraly about a different topic a few months ago. It appeared he was fond of using the royal (plural) “we” and “our” when referring to himself.

That’s actually common in some cultures. I don’t know his cultural heritage, just that he’s in Germany, where it’s not common (best I know).

In any case, to me it was just a quirk of expression. I didn’t read much into it, but understand how it can come across as intent to deceive. The “principle of charity” advises against leaping to negative conclusions, and I try to live by that.

You may learn more from looking at the German Center for Open Source AI Software Research site, of which he’s the Director:

https://gc-os-ai.github.io/

Not an endorsement from me. I’m not openly endorsing or opposing any candidate this year. Suit yourself!

I’m German, and using “we”,”our” (wir, unser) ist even Seen arrogant/ disrespectful, so I suppose it’s him thinking he has tons of followers (where I don’t know if he has them).

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@tim.one I was looking on that page yesterday. And on list of contributors in this repository. Half of this group is Franz. Also I couldn’t find on that page who/how many people is behind this “center”. The only thing what I see from this person is a lot of marketing.
This “center” seems to be similar ripoff on the https://www.dfki.de/en/web like python software federation on PSF.

Btw. I’m also the Director - in my sole proprietorship, but that’s probably the first time when i’m using this title to describe myself :wink:

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@mesrenyamedogbe, I have endorsed you based on your programme.

Unlike other people in this thread seem to imply, the “note” that you are not officially affiliated with me or my programme is not new, it was there from the start.
(FACT CHECK: the linked post would have an “edited” watermark, see my reply to the linkedin post for a more detailed explanation - fact check: post not edited )

@mesrenyamedogbe, I support you even if you do not support me.

Hope that is ok?

Also, I have not blocked anyone on LinkedIn from this thread, that is simply misinformation.

This “center” seems to be similar ripoff

@jell_pl, strange attacks that do not hold up to any fact check.

Website (temporary but has information): https://gcos.ai/

Affiliated open source python projects: feature-engine, hyperactive, pgmpy, prophetverse, pytorch-forecasting, pygam, pykalman, scikit-base, skforecast, skpro, sktime. These are real projects, some widely used and considered world-leading.

KPI across projects: Monthly downloads overall ca 3 million, ca 1.000 lifetime contributors, 50-100 million lifetime downloads, ca 3 dozen active core developers, 14 councilors.

Saying that GC.OS does not exist is a really, really bizarre, post-factual claim.

They are clearly uncomfortable with being mentioned by you, as they have expressed multiple times.

If you want to be respectful to them, edit out the mentions. Noone can force you to not endorse others, but it doesn’t look good on you if you don’t respect the wishes of others.

Also, the github page is still unchanged without the disclaimer that the other nominees don’t support the Federation initiative.

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I think this is off-topic here, but could be the basis for a different topic, if someone is so inclined.

Indeed the page for gc.os is short on organizational details. Best I could tell (although I didn’t follow every link), there’s no information there about anyone who works for it, who is on its Board, or any information about financials. Given the level of detail Franz is demanding of the PSF, it would be fair play to my eyes to ask why a non-profit he’s already playing some major role(s) in appears to offer none.

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I also think that using the word “federation” instead of “foundation” to promote the ideas may be confusing, at least for non-native speakers of English, especially as the acronym is the same.

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I didn’t “imply” it, I assumed (and said so) that the Note was added later, because otherwise I couldn’t understand the force of the objection here. There’s nothing wrong, to my eyes, with publicly endorsing a candidate provided it’s made clear that you weren’t saying (even by silent implication) that they were also endorsing you. The Note made it explicitly clear that you weren’t.

The Golden Rule suggests that you might be better off honoring the objector’s wish not to have your endorsement. But it also suggests the objector should not have responded by publicly calling for a mass reporting campaign against the platforms you published on. Disproportional rapid escalation of grievances is something the PSF could, IMO, benefit from less of.

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We should also clarify why we endorse you, @mesrenyamedogbe :

this is due to your tireless word on behalf of the African communities, and your courage to stand up to injustice in resource distribution, as well as to the inherent racism in PSF, and the ways in which it is hiding.

Much of it is already highlighted in your 2023 open letter to the PSF.
https://pythonafrica.blogspot.com/2023/12/an-open-letter-to-python-software_5.html

To anyone, this letter clearly evidences political leadership skills, competence, a great amount of courage, awareness of the key issues and mechanisms around the topic. Therefore, in our view, you are clearly a top candidate for anyone who would like to empower local communities worldwide, and also, specifically, the African communities.

Regarding our disagreements, I think it is also worth discussing where they are probably coming from. Below is my own estimate, but please feel free to add your views and opinions.

First, I want to confirm that we are not “in cahoots” or coordinating in any way. This is absolutely true, and there have not been any activities, covert or overt, to coordinate our campaigns. Still, we think you are a top choice aligned with our vision, see above – you are one of few people who advocate strongly for empowerment of communities, and you are one of a very small set of people who have historically dared to stand up to the PSF mainstream.

Second, if I am reading your programme correctly, you are advocating cautious reforms and cooperation with the close-knit PSF mainstream. You probably fear that association with the Federation initative will make your reform programme less likely to work in the eyes of your base, even if this is not real but only in public perception.

Here our views diverge: I think cautious reform and working with PSF mainstream is not going to be effective at all. Attempts will lead to stalling and eventual frustration of your efforts, and this outcome will be not incidental but systemically intentional.

As you have roughly outlined in the letter, there is overt racism and covert racism at work. The latter is harder to detect, as it tends to masquerade with nice window dressing, often under false promises of reform if you just play along supporting the system. Truth is, there are people who would rather eat their own excrement than give a black person real power, and they are willing to go lengths to prevent this. In the case of covert racism, under masquerade, i.e., under elaborate mechanisms that confer plausible deniability.

As an example, the indignities referenced in your 2023 letter, for instance, that historically disenfranchised communities being were denied support because they supposedly discriminate other disenfranchised communities, is nothing else but racism dressed up as DEI. More generally, the same principle can be used to construct any kinds of double standards, to withhold power or funding from any discriminated group. And at the end of the day, it is mostly white – and here: US American - elites who just happen to end up as the judges, juries, and executioners on these matters.

You correctly imply in your letter that the argument is a contrived double standard – to deny African pycons, it somehow matters, but ongoing discrimination of minorities in the USA itself - even the same minorities, plus the very black communities that are being denied funding, does not seem to stand in the way of the millions of dollars being spent by PSF on much larger American events. Hence, vicious racism, but not a very obvious form thereof.

Ultimately, we – from the Federation initiative – think that all of this judging and gatekeeping must be removed, and it will not disappear by itself, or by cautious reform. Let there be an African network of institutions who can decide on their own fortunes, and which draws legitimacy and empowerment directly from African communities. Self-determination is your innate right, it is not a privilege to bestow in repeatable, limited amounts. If anyone from the US wants to tell you how to run Python Africa, they can do, at best, as equals, and in no case as gatekeepers or dictators.

Regarding my own position above, I realize obviously that I am geopolitically privileged, as European citizen. Though I do also have a very good first hand view of discriminatory mechanisms, due to my migration background. Still privileged, I think I have a duty to use this privilege *not to tell you what to do*, but to *establish a situation where you are empowered in full autonomy*.

For this reason, even if you do not support our initiative, we still support you, unconditionally, in order to help establish this basic degree of empowerment that you have been historically denied. Therefore, should you ever need our help as allies, please do not hesitate to reach out.

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Given the level of detail Franz is demanding of the PSF, it would be fair play to my eyes to ask why a non-profit he’s already playing some major role(s) in appears to offer none.

@tim.one, what is all this.

A. off-topic attack on credibility, ad-hominem; whataboutism, “what about GC.OS, let’s not talk about PSF anymore”

B. wrong implication a la “are you still beating your wife”, false claim by supposition that GC.OS is intransparent. There is a good amount of information on the organisation and also on the individual GitHub pages of the projects, e.g., codes of conduct, meeting minutes.

C. we are not PSF with a five million yearly budget. the organization is relatively new, and creating a good webpage costs time and money.

Despite being, by my best knowledge, the most significant (by margin) association of python AI open source packages in Germany, we are not receiving support by the US aligned networks, and there have been in fact instances of adversarial activities and denial of already committed funds, not dissimilar to the situation that the African communities have gone through.

What you can do is to donate, or you can even directly make pull requests to the webpage repository that you have initially linked to.

I also think that using the word “federation” instead of “foundation” to promote the ideas may be confusing

It is an intentional play on words to highlight what the PSF could be and should be - a Federation of equals, and not a Foundation sitting in Oregon, USA, with staff and decision makers mostly from around there.

Here, I expect you to provide more concrete evidence of what you are talking about. Especially in the light in other recent allegations from you, which all turned out to be entirely wrong.

It’s not off-topic at all. We are not talking about an abstract project to reform the PSF. We are talking about your concrete candidature to the PSF board in the name of that project. We never elect ideas, we elect people who claim to represent those ideas.

Asking whether they really represent the ideas they claim to represent is a very healthy question that should apply to every kind of candidate in every kind of election.

If you are unable to stand by the principles of openness and transparency in your own organization (which, by your own admission, is very small: perhaps it’s just you? :slight_smile: ), then why would we trust you to uphold those principles in a much larger and more complex setting?

(and that’s why I actually haven’t voted for you, even though I think the overall idea of reforming and splitting the PSF is a very good one - that, and the fact that you seem a bit too keen on conspiracy theories and wild unsubstantiated accusations)

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As it said, my idea of “fair play:”.

As @pitrou spelled out already, the history of non-profit related organizations you already played key roles in shaping is supremely relevant to informing what people might expect of you if you were elected to the PSF’s Board. Nobody comes into an election ex nihilo. Track records matter. Your ideas aren’t what people are voting on directly.

The GitHub pages of the projects linked to generally don’t even mention any connection with GC.OS. You personally appear to be the technical lead on the projects whose names begin with “sk”.

Which may or may not be true in all cases. I haven’t looked at every page reachable (whether directly or indirectly) from the GC.OS site. It’s my experience that it’s been extraordinarily hard to find any info about GC.OS’s organizational structure, history, or finances.

While we had no access to any info at all about GC.OS’s budget until you just now volunteered that it’s under 5 million/year. That’s a start :wink:

The PSF also had extremely limited funds in its early days. But the history of its organizational structure and finances was publicly published from day 1. Some of which may have been required under US law to retain its IRS 501(c)(3) charity tax status, but mostly because all on the founding Board held transparency, openness, and accountability as core values, not just “nice to have eventually if it’s not too much work or possibly not self-flattering”. They were top priorities.

They may also be your values, but the visible results reflect the tradeoffs you felt were best to make. No organization has sufficient resources at the start (or perhaps ever) to do everything it would like to do. So the tradeoffs you have made are the best info people can get on the ones you’re likely to make again.

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This highlights a seemingly eternal tension civilizations have been struggling with forever.

“One reason people insist that you use the proper channels to change things is because they have control of the proper channels and they’re confident it won’t work.” - Jon Stone

Discussion on Discourse here is itself a “proper channel”, with content and modes of expression controlled by the PSF.

But then revolutionaries have rarely had an easy time of it :wink:

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Noting that somebody does not “officially” support you implies that they do so unofficially. Similarly by stating that there is no “official” affiliation. I can see no reason to qualify either of those statements with “official” unless you are seeking to imply unofficial links.

More simply though: if a candidate has explicitly disavowed you, why not simply remove their name from your post/github repo? It’s a question of basic respect.

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The GitHub pages of the projects linked to generally don’t even mention any connection with GC.OS.

Fact check: completely wrong at the time of the posting. Many of the claims in this thread - such as the completely false earlier claim that my LinkedIn post was “edited after backlash” - seem to be directed at people who do not check sources, or at least not quickly enough for it to make an impact on their vote.

This is absolutely dishonest argumentation, @tim.one.

Regarding the false claim of “does not mention any connection” first one in the list, feature-engine, for instance. I am not the technical lead.

While we had no access to any info at all about GC.OS’s budget until you just now volunteered that it’s under 5 million/year.

FACT CHECK: also totally wrong.

The founding projects have been using Open Collective over the last year, most income and expenditure is transparently managed there, see, e.g., sktime - Open Collective

Open Collective lists individual expenditure and incompe posts, unlike the PSF budget.

For GC.OS, we are still in discussions about the final fiscal structure, e.g., how to handle cost centers.

The PSF also had extremely limited funds in its early days. But the history of its organizational structure and finances was publicly published from day 1.

We are a non-profit under German law, so the same basic transparency requirements also apply to us.

Having said that, PSF does not seem to do more than US tax law requires, e.g., further splitting up expenditures on pycon US - while there are imo really good questions that have remained unanswered (see the other threads).

Here, I expect you to provide more concrete evidence of what you are talking about.

@pitrou, regarding the discrimination allegations, just read the 2023 letter by python Africa that I linked.

which, by your own admission, is very small: perhaps it’s just you

It is amazing that in the same post you are throwing out a wild conspiracy theory, i.e., that GC.OS is fake and has me as its only member/affiliate, and then are accusing me of wild conspiracy theories:

the fact that you seem a bit too keen on conspiracy theories and wild unsubstantiated accusations

This is wild, even for the standards of post-factual US America.

To anyone else, feel free to join the GC.OS discord server and chat to the core developers and councilors of various open source projects that I assure you are real:

Or, according to @pitrou, maybe these are all sock puppet accounts that I am running? Just like the 1.000 or so GitHub contributor accounts? After all, you haven’t seen them in the same room with me, have you? WooOooOoooo… (insert X files theme music here)

Just ‘attacking’ each other does not help. Perhaps we can bring this post back to topic?

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